Wyn Jones started his working life as a Stoker in the Navy; he left in 1982 and joined the Prison Service as an auxiliary officer. He became qualified in 1984.  He then served at HMP Strangeways for nine years where he received the Home Secretary’s commendation for his behavior during the riots. After promotion, he worked at HMP Liverpool under Gov. Bill Abbott before going to Risley as a principal officer. He then went to HMP Wymott for his first governor’s job. He was promoted twice at Wymott before becoming the Deputy Governor at Preston prison. After a few years he was seconded to help the market testing at HMP Liverpool when it was in need of some invigoration. In 2006 he joined the private prison system to be the Director of Dovegate.

He is the instigator of QITs in-house committees of staff and inmates who look into and recommend solutions to problems. He is ultimately responsible for their success or failure. We wanted to know why he brought them into being.

Before we talk about your work here, can you say why you joined the private sector?

Wyn Jones  Because I believed that I had an opportunity to do something genuinely unique! I was offered a fantastic opportunity and basically my new bosses said: ‘You manage the place and achieve the correct business aims and we won’t interfere’. These included security, Decency and a safe environment. It was an exhilarating and rather scary prospect. It was something I simply could not say no to.

Lets talk about the QITs system from your perspective. From a cynical standpoint, the QITs system has the potential to cause huge amounts of senior management problems because it creates a large amount of different outlets for people to voice dissent. So from your perspective as the man in overall charge, what are the benefits and pitfalls of installing such a system?

By the end of the initial phase, I knew all the moans and whines from staff and Prisoners.  I had given everybody a shared understanding that there comments would be taken as constructive and I have to say the results weren’t as bad as they could have been.

What did you put that down to?

Wyn Jones We had already spent two years on a programme designed to address the niggles that had built up in systems since the prison opened. This had led to an increase in safety, and an increase in both staff and inmates personal sense of well-being. We had increased officer interaction with prisoners, and we worked very hard to ensure that all prisoners felt like citizens of HMP Dovegate. As a result of this I didn’t envisage having a huge shopping list of things that I couldn’t fix. So once we had identified the problems, it was quite easy for us to get joint ownership of the solutions.

What precisely do you mean by ‘joint ownership’? It sounds like a Civil Service phrase that involves everyone sharing the blame or one person taking the credit.

Wyn Jones What I mean by ‘joint ownership’ is it’s not only the staff that work on, and create the best solution to a problem. The service user has a view as well. By that I mean the prisoner. They also have a valid input and can often give you solutions that you may well not have thought of or even considered possible. We have realised that prisoners don’t think in a commercial or risk-free way.  We discovered they held opinions that seemed, at the time, to be very surprising. We were quite amazed with some of the solutions to problems they came up with and how simple and effective they were. You get a fresh perspective from the joint ownership of problems and solutions.

A system like this can start off with high ideals and good intentions, but could quite rapidly descend into a moaning shop. How have you prevented this happening?

Wyn Jones Two things ensure this doesn’t happen. The first, is that my personal involvement has to be enough to keep it alive and relevant, yet not so much that I take over. I have found the best way for me to be involved is to ensure that where I make an input, it’s for a special reason. The second is that the whole process must be kept fresh. We achieved this by launching the scheme properly with very clear, accurate terms of reference. Time was allocated from the working day to ensure it could be done properly. We also had well thought out and balanced teams. We introduced regular meetings and appraisals to ensure the momentum continued. In addition, team members are clearly identified in the house blocks and I give updates in my newsletter. If events within the prison, such as the new blocks, detract attention from the programme, then we ensure that as soon as possible, we go back, we examine, re-energize and remind everybody just how much good this process does.

This type of programme requires a different style of management from the usual top down role of a Governor. 

How do you ensure that people maintain the attitude that they can speak and think freely?

Wyn Jones We have regular quarterly reviews, where we get people together. We set aside time from the programme for them. We gather around and review where the individual teams have got to and what progress they still need to make, all in an informal atmosphere, with tea and biscuits provided! I ensure that we treat the prisoners as people and the staff as my equal. At no time do I ever suggest they are off target or behind. I offer alternative views for them to take on board and consider. I take a position where I am guiding and coaching to ensure that they don’t become bogged down or go too far away from what is actually possible. I have to say that it is the most rewarding part of my job; I never cease to be amazed by the ideas, progress and the positive nature of the people involved. The results are tremendous.

A system like this must produce more than just ideas and solutions. It must have an effect on the people involved in the process. What changes have you seen come about in the people involved?

Wyn Jones It doesn’t matter whether it’s a prisoner or a member of staff. Seeing people’s self-esteem, enjoyment and confidence grow is truly rewarding in itself.

Could you give me an example of a benefit that has flowed from this system - Something specific?

Wyn Jones When I first arrived here in 2006 the place was in a bit of a lost state. One of the things that prisoners would often say to me was that they never got an answer to their applications at all or indeed, quickly enough. This was a big bone of contention and so I ditched the existing system and went back to an old Prison Service system of having a large ledger on each wing where prisoners would stand in line to have their ‘applications’ written down. They could then come back the following day to see the answer. It was old-fashioned, time-consuming, inefficient, but ultimately safe and reliable. It stayed in place up to the time when a QITs informed me that we no longer needed it.

They described it as wasteful, cumbersome and lacking privacy. They recommended a paper form in triplicate, which could be filled out by the prisoner. Its creation would be logged, the prisoner would keep one copy, the wing would keep another and the third copy would be sent off to the person who could answer the question.

They would have the time during the day to answer it properly then get the form back by the following morning, so the prisoner could have their answer. The benefits that flowed from this were that prisoners felt like they had a voice, they were being listened to and they were getting results; prisoners reported such systems in other prisons they had been in. There is a definite correlation between treating prisoners as responsible citizens and the standard of behavior they present. The more you encourage them to act like citizens, the more they behave like reasonable citizens. It’s a win-win situation.

Has there been a spill over into unexpected areas?

Wyn Jones At the risk of repeating myself, once you get this ‘infectious goodness’ pervading the establishment, then unexpected things flow from it. For instance, we sometimes get the situation where inmates will say to one another:  ‘No you are not going to use drugs or weapons on my wing, we don’t do that here anymore.’ It’s quite amazing and it’s a direct result of encouraging inmates to take ownership of their problems and surroundings.

Another example was when we had a diversity week - infact we have had one for the last three years running. As many prisoners as possible spent their Association time in wheelchairs; indeed we had a full Olympic style games organised along the lines of the Paralympic Games. The aim was to find out what it is like to have a serious disability. We obtained about 40 wheelchairs from a Stoke City basketball team, who have been fantastic supporters of us here at Dovegate for the last four years. At the end of the week, the prisoners were saying how they now understood what it feels like to have a disability. All this came from the improved citizenship concept that was brought about by a suggestion made by one of the QITs. It meant that the prisoners who took part were able to appreciate another’s difficulties. Such appreciation can easily help them appreciate what their crime does to the victims and that benefits us all.

What about more tangible things, levels of adjudications, MDT results and assaults on staff?

Wyn Jones We are a very safe prison and we have a serious assault level that would be the envy of any prison governor. The QITs are not entirely responsible for this, but the system has had a beneficial effect. Together with the citizenship programmes it helps to cement and glue good behavior into the ethos of Dovegate.

I remember interviewing a Director of a private prison who had spent his entire career to that appointment in the public sector. He told me that being in the private sector gave him the freedom to try things out to see if they worked and that he didn’t enjoy that freedom in the public sector. The ethos of the Public sector was also a brake on innovation. Could you have done this in a public sector prison?

Wyn Jones Prisoners and Staff working together to find solutions to problems each face - probably not. We have an atmosphere here that is conducive to accepting change. It was in place when I became Director in 2006. There were lots of good things going on, but no real direction or strategy. What I did was to break it down into manageable chunks and fit it in as part of an overall strategic direction. The” can do” atmosphere had been already created, so we began to nurture and feed it; we built on that because it is such a valuable commodity.

For nearly all the staff here, this is their first prison, so we have a very ‘optimistic’ and ‘let’s have a go’ Staff culture. That is not always the case with well established cultures were the “gilded cage” can become a toxic and pervasive element, by gilded cage I mean people trapped in jobs they don’t like, but they can’t afford to leave because pay and conditions are too good to find equal elsewhere. So being trapped and unhappy they become toxic within the host culture. I will state that where the Prison Service is fantastic it truly is exceptional and their Staff culture reflects that however, when it is negative its extraordinarily difficult to turn it round, many a Governor will testify to that. We tend to look at things from new perspectives and with fresh eyes. This is a great help and enables systems like QITs to be trialed and the benefits realised.

Thank you for talking to the Review.